Talk:Origin of the Romanians

Rome

Rome has 2.743.796 Population 2A04:2410:1706:5280:F9C5:93C9:1946:8658 (talk) 11:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Rásonyi

@Gyalu22: Rásonyi published his views about the association of the Hungarian chronicles Blachi with the Bulaqs more than 40 years ago. Could you refer to works published by international publishing houses accepting Rásonyi's view? If not, we should not mention it either as per WP:DUE. Borsoka (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Az Árpád-kori Magyarország Történeti Földrajza volume 2 by György Györffy (see the p. 48) comes to mind, but that's even older. I've recently read another publication from the journal Történelmi Szemle (27th volume 4nd issue, p. 633) that seems to support the "Bulaq theory" over the Vlach one.

I don't think that the view of Spinei is also covered and accepted by many works from international publishing houses. Gyalu22 (talk) 19:42, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

One of Spinei's works are published by BRILL. The other work is referred to by Denis Deletant's studies about Romanian history. Borsoka (talk) 01:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gyalu22 and OrionNimrod: could you refer to books or articles published by international academic publishing houses that support Rásonyi's theory? Borsoka (talk) 02:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I mentioned two.

Neither of these views are discussed and accepted by many books or articles published by international academic publishing houses. Gyalu22 (talk) 08:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

1. The page you are referring to above does not support (or mention) the "Bulaq theory" (Györffy, György (1987). Doboka, erdélyi Fehér, Esztergom, Fejér, Fogaras, Gömör és Győr megye [Doboka, Transylvanian Fehér, Esztergom, Fejér, Fogaras, Gömör és Győr Counties]. Az Árpád-kori Magyarország történeti földrajza [Historical Geography of Árpádian Hungary] (in Hungarian). Vol. II. Akadémiai Kiadó. ISBN 963-05-3533-5.) 2. A random reference to the theory in respected journal does not verify the notablity of the theory. 3. I maintain that Rásonyi's theory is a typical marginal theory. Would you refer to books or articles published in English that support it? Borsoka (talk) 09:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

1. I don't have the book, but from an online preview I saw "A blak etnikumot illetően mongol kori források hozhatók fel annak tanúsítására, hogy itt a Volga-vidékéről eredeztetett török féle blak, ulaq népelemről lehet szó, e középkori tudós [preview ends]". And Györffy is a reputed mainstream historian.
2. My reference was wrong. On page 633, the theory is only explained, the author expresses sympathy on the next page (though he says on 633 already that he holds the Blacus name doesn't have anything to do with the Vlachs). I quote: "A blak, blök nép azonosításában két lehetőséget látok: 1. kunok előtti török, 2. eltörökösödött iráni népszórvány neve. Az előnyomuló kunok maguk közé szervezték ezt a szórványt, ennek következtében, de korábban is kerülhettek blak, blök szórványok a Volga mentére. Ahová viszont újlatin nyelvű vlachok nem érkeztek. Úgy vélem, hogy Anonymus kun körből merítette a Blacus (Blak) nevet, és ezért alkalmazta a szókezdő B-t".

Gyalu22 (talk) 09:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Change the title from "Origin of the Romanians" to the more academic wording "Ethnogenesis of the Romanians"

Change the title from "Origin of the Romanians" to the more academic wording "Ethnogenesis of the Romanians". Thanks in advance. Ninhursag3 (talk) 05:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

If many people wouldn't understand the word "ethnogenesis", that's a strike against it. AnonMoos (talk) 09:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - I also think the "Origin of the Romanians" title is easier to understand. RF354 (talk) 09:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - I think the same that "Origin of the Romanians" title is easier to understand. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Besides comprehensibility, similarity with the title of other articles covering the origin/ethnogenesis of other nations. Type in "origin of the" in the search bar.Gyalu22 (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm waiting for Romanians to vote as well. Seems unfair for only Hungarians to vote regarding wikipedia articles about Romanians...Hungarians opposing a proposal by a Romanian is not something uncommon but quite expected. On the other hand, typing "Origins of" indeed shows different results. So on that point I understand the perspective.

However "Origins of" for saying Romanians are a few kilometers South or North of the Danube is not the same as origins of groups coming thousands of kilometers away from Siberia or India... Ninhursag3 (talk) 14:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I can tell of myself and OrionNimrod that we are Hungarians, but I don't know how you determined the ethnicity of the two other voters. Gyalu22 (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose not a familiar word to many. I'm not Hungarian. Since there are many theories, you could follow Origin hypotheses of the Croats. Johnbod (talk) 14:32, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Than rename it to "Origin hypotheses of the Romanians"? Ninhursag3 (talk) 15:49, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'd support that. Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Seems many nations has many origin theories. Hungarians also has origin theories. I think modern genetic could help, however because all nations mixed during centuries each other of various levels, perhaps the combination of more theory can be also the truth. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm so glad we finally agree. I knew we could eventually see eye to eye. Like I already said "I personally think on all articles instead of "Origins of Croats/Romanians/Albanians etc" it should be changed to "Ethnogenesis hypotheses of Croats/Romanians/Albanians" etc. Just saying "origins" doesn't sound academic but almost derogatory and not just "simplified". This is an academic issue, not a "simplistic" issue. "

This is not the "simple English language version" but just the normal English language version, so words like "ethnogenesis" should be fine. Ethno means "ethnicity" and "genesis" means "origin". Ninhursag3 (talk) 17:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe I'm asking too much but has anyone read the Romanians wikipedia page but the German version?https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum%C3%A4nen 10% is a few words about Romanians like "there 23,8 million Romanians around the world" and 90% is about the "Ethnogenesis of the Romanians" ("Die rumänische Ethnogenese"). This must be the most unprofessional article I've ever read on wikipedia. It's nothing like the superior English version with many references and topics regarding Romanians. Nothing about the Culture of Romania, List of Romanian inventors and discoverers, Romanian literature, Romanian architecture, Science and technology in Romania, Vlachs, Great Vlachia, Wallachia, Moldavia, Alexandru Ioan Cuza, Danubian Principalities, Unification of Moldavia and Wallachia, United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, Greater Romania, Romanian language, Romanian Orthodox Church, Romanian Greek Catholic Church.

I asked in German using google translate on the German wikipedia version of "Romanians" but nobody helped *sigh*. Can anyone please help? Ninhursag3 (talk) 17:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment See also Origin of the Albanians. RF354 (talk) 16:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I already said "typing "Origins of" indeed shows different results. So on that point I understand the perspective."

I personally think on all articles instead of "Origins of Croats/Romanians/Albanians etc" it should be changed to "Ethnogenesis hypotheses of Croats/Romanians/Albanians" etc. Just saying "origins" doesn't sound academic but almost derogatory and not just "simplified". This is an academic issue, not a "simplistic" issue. Ninhursag3 (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

1. I think it's more important for a title to be clear than to be "academic sounding".
2. The article doesn't only outline the hypotheses about the origin of the Romanians, most of it is about archaeological, linguistic, genetic and literal data regarding the ancient times.

Gyalu22 (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty "academic sounding" titles on wikipedia, especially since this is not the simple English version. Ninhursag3 (talk) 19:49, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Then just "Ethnogenesis of the Romanians" without "Ethnogenesis hypotheses of Romanians". Ninhursag3 (talk) 19:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

"Origin" for similarity with other articles. Gyalu22 (talk) 05:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, "ethnogenesis" can be added to the other articles in order to be similar, especially since ethnogenesis is the correct word for the academic context. Ninhursag3 (talk) 07:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing incorrect about the word origin. Gyalu22 (talk) 16:24, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. There's no other Wikipedia article titled "Ethnogenesis of" but several using "Origins of". Per Wikipedia policy WP:CONSISTENT (with other articles) the best option here would be to keep the current version. Furthermore, Ethnogenesis does indeed sound more professional but not necessarily better because of that, "Origins of" has the benefit of simplicity. Super Ψ Dro 13:14, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - sorry, Ninhursag3, but this article is constructed around the location of Romanians during the late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages, hence the term "origin" is more accurate. The ethnogenesis as a process is discussed here only in supporting arguments related to the possible location. Perhaps a different article dealing with mechanism of the process and its implications might be needed, yet I'm not sure wikipedians won't see it as forking.--Aristeus01 (talk) 08:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Romance language

@WikiUser70176: The sources which you have WP:CITEd are awfull. IMHO, I would go for only Martin Maiden. 2016. Romanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, and Aromanian. In Adam Ledgeway and Martin Maiden (eds.), The Oxford guide to the Romance languages, 91-125. Oxford: Oxford University Press. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

That was not a very nice and civil thing to do, i.e. undoing my edit before I even got the chance to respond. I was about to say "thanks!" for pointing me to Maiden. It took me a while to locate the source as I don't have access to it, even with my academic credentials. And to read it. And to formulate a concise and neutral POV paragraph. Instead of my thanks, I will say:

• 1. I cite what I read. If you want me to cite something else, give me that something else, or better yet, do it yourself.
• 2. All my sources comply with WP:VERIFY. Graduate theses are accepted and I have no clue about what ideological book you refer to.
• 3. "Awfull" (sic!) is not an argument, is an opinion, therefore safely disregarded. My sources follow WP:SOURCE policy. Check again.
• 4. The place to debate your proposed paragraph is here, on the talk page, not on the main page. BTW, I was fine with your proposed paragraph. I will add that "the Eastern Romance sub-branch is a linguistic group that evolved from several dialects of Vulgar Latin which separated from the Western Romance languages in the course of the period from the 5th to the 8th centuries.. As a scholar myself, I value any country's National Academy's point of view - scholarly speaking only - above any other source (save for consensus in peer-reviewed papers), as does WP:SOURCE, as should any editor that values objectivity. At the very least it should be mentioned. I have only the 1969 edition but if you have a more recent one, feel free to amend my sentence.
• 5. Please don't start an edit-war. I am not an extremist or a nationalist or whathaveyou. You also removed a reference to the Max Planck Institute Linguistic Database (why?!, if even these people aren't reliable, than who on Earth are?!). In my experience, people who remove academic references are POV pushers and there is no debate with them. Consequently, I will not engage you. In addition, given your belligerent past, your tendency to hold grudges as evidenced by your editing history, and - most importantly - your present aggressive tone to me, someone you had no previous interactions with, this shall be my only reply and edit here. So if you revert my edits, so be it; enjoy your page and POV pushing. I'm out. Cheers.

♦ WikiUser70176 ♦^{(My talk page)} 20:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Hmm... I don't agree. The Academy of Sciences of the Socialist Republic of Romania was a strongly politicized and ideological body. So, even if they wrote that the sky is blue, WP:CITE another source for it. Vladimir Tismaneanu and some other peers of him were making sport of Ceausescu's speech introducing juche to Romania, but an older professor reminded them that's how Stalinist purges have started. That happened in 1971, see July Theses, but of course National-Communism was introduced to the Romanian people soon after the death of Dej, with many nationalists of the Iron Guard and the historical parties getting rehabilitated in order to write propaganda for the regime. Or since even the early 1960s (before Dej's death). See National communism in Romania.

And can assure you that if we debase our standards to recognize Master's theses as WP:RS, the hell would break loose at Wikipedia.

Yup, I wrote There were people sent to prison just because they dared to criticize Ceausescu's retarded juche ideology. And I can agree it is aggressive. There is however no indication that the aggressiveness was directed towards you. That's only your interpretation of what I wrote. In fact, it is directed towards my country's past and towards how historians and social scientists chose to serve the retarded juche ideology. The mystery is: why do you think I was writing that about you? You were probably not born yet at the time we are discussing. I stated a harsh truth about a harsh reality, but not about you. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@WikiUser70176 currently the Academy's view is that the language developed from the Latin spoken in the Roman provinces on the Danube (commonly referred as Danubian Latin) and went trough a stage called Common Romanian (ref Sala From Latin to Romanian). The idea that Daco-Romance languages developed separately, or from several dialects, or only in close connexion is, to my knowledge, extinct. Aristeus01 (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Aristeus01 I agree. Put it in! ♦ WikiUser70176 ♦^{(My talk page)} 00:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Find another source, instead of the sick National-Communist propaganda book. There should be plenty of other sources. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

One WP:RS from WP:CHOPSY beats a dozen of dubious citations. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

We stand for WP:BESTSOURCES, we have no time to waste with a Master's thesis and with a book of ancilla ideologiae. I'm not even saying that that book is junk, but they were clearly running a state-sponsored ideological propaganda show. There were people sent to prison just because they dared to criticize Ceausescu's retarded juche ideology. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:40, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I think WP:RSN thread Origin of the Romanians might interest editors involved in this thread. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

The book was not making propaganda for the Romanian people, but against it. The difference with Proletcultism was the that mystique of the tractor was replaced with sugary myths of Romanian exceptionalism. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Why are hungarian users write about the origin of romanians?

I hope you banned the liars like Rásonyi from contributing, this incident should come to mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1073#User:Borsoka_and_User:Fakirbakir 2A02:2F04:5001:A900:78BE:D4D:2367:6E6D (talk) 03:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you clarify the connection between Rásonyi and myself? As far as I can remember I have never cited Rásonyi. Yes, chauvinistic Romanian editors (most of them banned from our community years ago) and their sockpuppets have made several attempts to achieve a topic ban against me for years. They have so far always failed. Borsoka (talk) 04:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Low-quality sourcing

I am not tagging the article, though it would be great if someone well-versed on the topic worked on it. Most of the article is based on partisan Romanian and Hungarian scholars who are mostly of a low quality. There is also large dependence on other old, largely discredited scholars like Schramm and Georgiev. The theory of the origin north of the Danube is treated as equal with the theory of the origin south of the Danube, though nowadays there is hardly any high-quality, non-partisan linguist specializing in the Paleo-Balkans claiming that the core of the Romanian population originated north of the Danube. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

History or Linguistic?

This article is about history. Why The Cambridge History of the Romance Languages is introduced in this article??? Is Linguistics more important than history? The paragraph has to be eliminated. Its place is in an article about linguistics. It seems many detractors want to mingle topics in order to stress their opinions. Dellhom (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

The Cambridge what of the Romance Languages? Aristeus01 (talk) 19:46, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

And the article is not about history but ethnogenesis. Borsoka (talk) 01:37, 25 March 2025 (UTC)